Curse

Cathode_Reborn · May 14, 2008, 08:28 PM // 20:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by ogre_jd

-snip-

Many mesmer skills are powerful in PvP but have long recharges (E-surge/Burn, Backfire), nasty downsides (Blackout), or have effects that are nearly useless in PvE (Shame, Diversion, E-denial in general). Stuff dies too fast in pve for mesmers to be well-suited there. In pve, you want to see big numbers pop up. Mobs don't have good monks to back them up = brute force wins 90% of the time. There's often not much need for the heavy shutdown that a mesmer provide.

Tyla · May 14, 2008, 08:35 PM // 20:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cathode_Reborn

There's often not much need for the heavy shutdown that a mesmer provide.

Not only that, but a Ranger can provide Broad Head Arrow to give all of the people attacking the caster a Warmonger's Weapon that effects only spells and makes their cast two times longer.
The more physicals the more strength in interruption BHA gets.
And that's only 1 skill.

Cathode_Reborn · May 14, 2008, 08:38 PM // 20:38

Last time I used my ranger in pve, I was runnin Prepared/Concussion Shot - daze bubbles everywhere

strcpy · May 15, 2008, 02:56 AM // 02:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

I'm not sure why people want GftE!'s recharge removed. Critical hits do not turn the tides of a losing battle in PvE. There are plenty of other ways to abuse leadership's absurd energy returns if for some reason your build is energy heavy.

I want it removed because GftE! made the battle go much quicker. I don't care about "turning the tide" as, well, there is rarely anytime the tide isn't in my favor. In fact I have a hard time coming up with *any* skill that can turn the tide - if you are loosing it isn't going to be fixed by a single skill.

As for the skill in question I preferred it being used on a barrage ranger or my dervish because of the rate of adrenaline gain it was spammed quite a bit. If I had a paragon that used echoes it was also a nice one to go with that (again on a barrage ranger or a dervish), but then there are other shouts that work also I just usually felt that GftE! was the over all best. I don't care about using it for energy gain on my Paragon (I prefer +armor or damage mitigation shouts on mine).

Quote:

Splinter Weapon outdamages any elementalist skill and it only costs 5 energy. There is no reason to revert it back when it is still one of the best skills in the game.

It worked OK like that for well over a year - I didn't see any increase in the demand for eles after the nerf. The reason given for the nerf was during a phase of several PvP battles - I think it was VoD but it was long enough back that I don't remember for sure.

Besides - the question was which skills would you like to see reverted and it is one I would like to see. I doubt very many will be "reverted" (in fact I generally figured none will be) so the whole point is probably moot anyway.

Further each and every nerf given to a skill can easily be defended by statements such as what you said about Splinter Weapon depending on if you agreed with the nerf in the first place or not. I don't see any real difference with the newer Soul Reaping mechanics (it was, and still is, the most powerful attribute line in the game) and see no reason to revert it - others differer in their opinion on that one too. But then I'm not about to tell someone they are wrong for liking the older version better. If we are to assume that if a skill has a reasonable reason to nerf then it will get nerfed and we further assume we only nerf skills that meet that definition then there is no reason to separate the two. Overpowered is overpowered - the reason to split is that PvE is all about some overpowered, "balance" in PvE is more about build variety and having fun with builds (in which the old version of Splinter Weapon better fulfilled those two ideas).

kooomar · May 15, 2008, 03:03 AM // 03:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cathode_Reborn

Many mesmer skills are powerful in PvP but have long recharges (E-surge/Burn, Backfire), nasty downsides (Blackout), or have effects that are nearly useless in PvE (Shame, Diversion, E-denial in general). Stuff dies too fast in pve for mesmers to be well-suited there. In pve, you want to see big numbers pop up. Mobs don't have good monks to back them up = brute force wins 90% of the time. There's often not much need for the heavy shutdown that a mesmer provide.

Agree with most of those, like edenial (including shame), but diversion is a win/win in pve. Cast it on a monk and he either doesnt cast and dies because of AI (win) or he diverts his heals and dies (win).

Mewcatus · May 15, 2008, 03:08 AM // 03:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by strcpy

Further each and every nerf given to a skill can easily be defended by statements such as what you said about Splinter Weapon depending on if you agreed with the nerf in the first place or not.

I don't see any real difference with the newer Soul Reaping mechanics (it was, and still is, the most powerful attribute line in the game) and see no reason to revert it - others differer in their opinion on that one too. But then I'm not about to tell someone they are wrong for liking the older version better.

If we are to assume that if a skill has a reasonable reason to nerf then it will get nerfed and we further assume we only nerf skills that meet that definition then there is no reason to separate the two.

Overpowered is overpowered - the reason to split is that PvE is all about some overpowered, "balance" in PvE is more about build variety and having fun with builds (in which the old version of Splinter Weapon better fulfilled those two ideas).

This is a good reasoning, just wanted to reformat it from a wall of text to make it more reader friendly

Crom The Pale · May 15, 2008, 03:10 AM // 03:10

Something I've always wanted is to see the Area of AoE spells for Elementalists increased.

Having FireStorm and other ele spell switched from Adjacent to tarket to In The Area of target would be much more usable to coincide with the kiting of mobs.

brad- · May 15, 2008, 03:11 AM // 03:11

Make MM's useful again.

Make the necro touch skills spells or have longer recharge.

Bring LoD back to its usefulness.

Nerf SWAY and wounding strike.

Lengthen warrior tactic stances - all of them.

Remove rangers from the game.

The Meth · May 15, 2008, 03:32 AM // 03:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crom The Pale

Something I've always wanted is to see the Area of AoE spells for Elementalists increased.
Having FireStorm and other ele spell switched from Adjacent to tarket to In The Area of target would be much more usable to coincide with the kiting of mobs.

Agreed. Adjecent AoE is really a useless piece of crap that just encourages people to load every enemy on a tank. For general PvE Adjacent might hit 2 enemies half the time. I think nearby is high enough though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by brad-

Make MM's useful again.

Because having 10 lvl 18 allies smashing enemies, providing nearly 4.5k of health in between you and the enemy, and being able to heal all 10 of them by 122 constantly (Almost 2x as strong as a monk's heal party at 1/3rd of the cost) is weak . Ohh, and infinite energy for you and any other necro in the party

Quote:

Originally Posted by brad-

Make the necro touch skills spells or have longer recharge.

Sounds like someones upset about being schooled by a touch ranger.

Quote:

Originally Posted by brad-

Bring LoD back to its usefulness.
Nerf SWAY and wounding strike.

Agreed, though this should be for both PvE and PvP

Quote:

Originally Posted by brad-

Remove rangers from the game.

Are you joking? Rangers are one of the most crucial professions in the game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GloryFox

snip

Major lulz at anyone who thinks PvE mesmers are on par with the other classes for PvE. Cry of Pain does not count.

It would be great if PvE mesmers would somehow become viable, but it would require a great amount of skills to be changed and they probably wouldn't end up very mesmer-y anymore. We would just have a necro/ele hybrid with better clothes.

Agreed with everyone on reworking SR so it doesn't punish people who are good along with nerfing ursan into the ground.

Racthoh · May 15, 2008, 06:08 AM // 06:08

SR seems fine; if my hero can play necromancer well why can't a human?

Quote:

Originally Posted by strcpy

In fact I have a hard time coming up with *any* skill that can turn the tide - if you are loosing it isn't going to be fixed by a single skill.

Pretty much the reason why skill revisions seem completely unnecessary for PvE. If no one skill is going to make an impact then what is the point in making these changes?

Alleji · May 15, 2008, 06:33 AM // 06:33

I can't believe people want SR and minion limit back... cause necros aren't OP enough, rite? Why don't we bring back ether renewal too?

strcpy · May 15, 2008, 08:12 AM // 08:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mewcatus

This is a good reasoning, just wanted to reformat it from a wall of text to make it more reader friendly

Aww, I like walls of text - it shows off my ability to type and spell badly (I'm dyslexic and I want others to suffer).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

Pretty much the reason why skill revisions seem completely unnecessary for PvE. If no one skill is going to make an impact then what is the point in making these changes?

You misunderstand me - I don't disagree with that. I've never understood why the PvE crowd (of which I am nearly 100% a part of) gets angry at most skill balances. I've yet to find any game that doesn't do them even if PvE only. I say the same thing to monks who say they can't heal something that the AI happily does with little Energy and "bad" builds too. It keeps the game different and any nerf may very well be countered by a buff (and this will be interesting - will the PvE'ers get angry when a buff isn't added to PvE? Will we be where no nerfs will ever apply but all buffs will?). Due to this I actually look forward to skill balance days as I know I will have a slightly different game the next day. I've found myself on the fence about this until we see how it works out.

However Anet, in response to the community, says otherwise. I have skills I would love to see reverted so I listed them. I don't see Splinter Weapon, Soul Reaping, MM limit, and a few other things as being particularly needing of balance in PvE. As such listing them answers the OP's question - I preferred the older versions. In fact for some cases, such as given how we now keep our minions alive I think think something like an unlimited minion limit is VERY balanced and VERY interesting in PvE (yet is horridly unbalanced in PvP). The changes to BOTM is interesting in this case.

Ah well - such will be any system. Some will like it, some will not, and some will not ever really notice.

Tyla · May 15, 2008, 09:01 AM // 09:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by brad-

Make MM's useful again.

Because having 9-10 bone figures smashing something with Barbs on them and dying to deal AoE armour-ignoring damage isn't useful.

Quote:

Make the necro touch skills spells or have longer recharge.

DEM TUCH RANGERZ HERTED ME

Quote:

Lengthen warrior tactic stances - all of them.

They were changed because Monks shouldn't have passive defense that is maintainable on it's own with 1-2 skills I believe. No cast time too!

Quote:

Remove rangers from the game.

The only thing in PvP that keeps them in the game mainly is D-Shot.
Anything else is either weak compared to a WoD Necro, an AoM Dervish, a Dev / Magehunter.

If you're getting rid of Rangers, get rid of Mesmers because Diversion hurts aswell.

BlackSephir · May 15, 2008, 09:09 AM // 09:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by brad-

Make MM's useful again.

I must've missed the update when they became useless.

zwei2stein · May 15, 2008, 09:24 AM // 09:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackSephir

I must've missed the update when they became useless.

Seems we all did.

When did that happen?

tmakinen · May 15, 2008, 09:33 AM // 09:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by strcpy

I've never understood why the PvE crowd (of which I am nearly 100% a part of) gets angry at most skill balances.

Because they don't like when somebody moves their cheese? People like predictability (disclaimer: I prefer adapting over getting angry because the latter doesn't solve anything but I've noticed that many people think otherwise).

Actually, most of PvE is totally indifferent to skill balancing. In the past we've been doing wacky things like sealed deck play (essentially random skillbars) or hench vanquishing (players must use the exact skillbar of a hench of their primary profession, secondaries or consumables not allowed) - both result to what most sane people would call terribad builds but it's still ok because it's PvE and everything goes.

The only area where even minor skill changes may have huge consequences is soloing. Many builds rely on very specific properties of certain skills and a tiny change may render the entire build unusable.

And what's wrong with the original Ether Renewal? It was hot cakes back in summer '05 when GW was actually a fun and rewarding game

R.Shayne · May 15, 2008, 03:01 PM // 15:01

I would like to see some skills returned to their original status; [energizing wind], [Splinter Weapon], [protective bond] but I have moved on and adapted to the changes. Don’t trap anymore in the UW and don’t low level farm with my ranger anymore and use [protective spirit].

Instead of creating a huge update where every skill is changed I would rather see a select few skills changed that really need it and for the most part just leave pve alone. If they have the resources to make changes in gw1 I would rather see them fix / implement some other things then change skills.

How are the forms and wiki going to handle two different skill with the same name?

Tyla · May 15, 2008, 03:07 PM // 15:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

And what's wrong with the original Ether Renewal? It was hot cakes back in summer '05 when GW was actually a fun and rewarding game

I believe it allowed 10+ energy skills to be mashed on recharge for the duration on the skill.
Provided extremely strong energy management, just as Mind Blast did, just alot more powerful and straight off.

I'm not sure exactly how powerful it was though. I think it was used immensely on flag runners in GvG, so I'm guessing: Pretty powerful.

phan · May 15, 2008, 03:12 PM // 15:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by brad-

Remove rangers from the game.

Prepare to get hunted at lolz ;

I could give about 100things why you should be killed etc ; instead i'm going to give 1

skill + dshot = win =)

Nightow · May 15, 2008, 04:05 PM // 16:05

Tune up Communing and Spawning. Splinter Barrage is still nice atm but it's either that or run a hybrid build for ritualists. 2 builds != fun.
Nerf Healing Prayers or just simply [Healer's Boon].
Nerf Fire magic, used wayyy too often in PvE for it's AoE spells.
Buff [Way of the Fox] or other skills that help in getting past annoying blocking mechanic.
Reduce the aftercast delay on some Dervish Enchants.
Remove the Cracked Armor condition from [Aggressive Refrain] or update the Monk AI to not bother removing the condition.
Update Monk AI to NOT HEAL MINIONS.
[incoming] <- Revert please. I find it funny and sad that Kormir has this as her elite but it does squat.
Reduce casting time on most motivation skills.